Home saunas are an amazing addition to any home, but what does one cost? Learn…

Infrared vs Traditional Sauna: Pros and Cons – Making the Right Choice for Your Health
Discover key differences between infrared and traditional saunas, from temperature and health benefits to costs and installation requirements.
Ever found yourself wondering which sauna would be the better addition to your wellness routine? You’re not alone! The sauna world has been heating up (pun intended) with options, and choosing between all of the available infrared and traditional models can feel overwhelming. Whether you’re considering investing in a home sauna or just curious about which type to try at your local spa, this guide will help you sweat through the details.
In this article, we’ll cover:
- The fundamental differences between infrared and traditional saunas
- Health benefits backed by science (and separating fact from fiction)
- Practical considerations to help you make the best choice for your lifestyle
Ready to discover which sauna experience might be your perfect match? Let’s warm things up!
Understanding the Basics: What Sets Infrared and Traditional Saunas Apart
The History and Evolution of Sauna Therapy
Saunas aren’t exactly new kids on the block. Traditional Finnish saunas have been around for over 2,000 years! These wooden hot rooms began as simple pit saunas dug into embankments before evolving into the steam-filled wooden rooms we recognize today. The Finns have a saying: “The sauna is Finland’s greatest gift to humanity.” Can’t say we disagree!
Infrared saunas, on the other hand, are relatively new, emerging in the late 20th century. They represent a modern twist on an ancient practice, using technology instead of fire and rocks. Think of it as the difference between cooking over an open flame versus using a microwave—both get the job done, just differently.
How Traditional Saunas Generate Heat
Traditional saunas work on a pretty straightforward principle. They heat the air around you using either:
- Wood-burning stoves (the most authentic option)
- Electric heaters
- Gas heaters
These heat sources warm a pile of rocks, which radiate heat throughout the room. When water is poured over these rocks (a practice called “löyly” in Finnish), it creates steam that increases humidity and intensifies the heat sensation. The air temperature typically ranges from 150°F to 195°F (65°C to 90°C), creating that intense, enveloping heat that has you sweating buckets within minutes.
How Infrared Saunas Work: The Science Behind Infrared Technology
Now for the techy part—infrared saunas operate on a completely different principle. Instead of heating the air, they use infrared heaters that emit electromagnetic radiation. Don’t let that scare you though! This is the same type of radiation the sun produces, just without the harmful UV rays.
These infrared waves penetrate your skin directly, heating your body from the inside out. The air around you stays much cooler, typically between 120°F and 140°F (50°C to 60°C). You’re getting warm without feeling like you’re being roasted alive—quite nice for those who find traditional saunas too intense!
There are actually three types of infrared wavelengths—near, mid, and far—each penetrating to different depths and potentially offering varying benefits. Many modern infrared saunas use a combination of these wavelengths for a full-spectrum experience.
Traditional Saunas: A Deep Dive into the Classic Experience
How Traditional Saunas Heat Your Body
Walking into a traditional sauna feels like getting engulfed in a big fluffy blanket right out of the dryer. The heated air warms your skin first, and then gradually your core temperature rises. Your body responds by dilating blood vessels near the surface of your skin and increasing blood flow to cool down—hello, red face and that distinctive sauna glow!
The process is intense and immersive. You feel the heat immediately, and your body kicks into cooling mode fast. Sweat production ramps up quickly, and you’ll likely be dripping within minutes. This intense heat experience creates what some researchers call “good stress” or “hormetic stress” on your body, which might explain some of the health benefits.
Traditional saunas are often built with specific types of wood like cedar, hemlock, or aspen that can withstand the extreme temperatures and humidity without warping. The wood also contributes to that wonderful, authentic sauna experience through its natural aroma when heated.
Temperature and Humidity Ranges in Traditional Saunas
Traditional saunas typically operate at temperatures between:
- Warm: 150-165°F (65-74°C)
- Hot: 165-175°F (74-80°C)
- Very hot: 175-195°F (80-90°C)
The humidity level varies based on how much water you splash on those rocks. A dry vs wet sauna experience can be quite different—a “dry sauna” might have humidity as low as 10%, while a steam-heavy session could push humidity up to 40%. This variability lets you customize your experience—want more intensity? Add more water!
The combination of high heat and variable humidity creates that classic sauna feel that enthusiasts crave. It’s intense, yes, but that’s part of the charm. Your heart rate increases significantly during a session, similar to the effects of moderate exercise, which is one reason traditional saunas are associated with cardiovascular benefits.
The Authentic Finnish Sauna Experience
There’s something special about the traditional Finnish sauna that goes beyond mere heat. It’s a cultural ritual, a social experience, and for many Finns, an almost spiritual practice. Traditionally, the sauna was a place for purification before important events and even for giving birth! Talk about a warm welcome to the world.
In Finland, the traditional sauna experience often includes:
- Multiple rounds of heating interspersed with cooling off
- Whisking the skin with bundles of birch twigs (known as “vihta”) to stimulate circulation
- Rolling in snow or taking a dip in an icy lake afterward (not for the faint of heart!)
This alternating hot-cold therapy has been practiced for generations and adds another dimension to the health benefits. At home, you might skip the snow roll and opt for a cool shower instead, but the principle remains the same.
Infrared Saunas: Modern Technology for Health Benefits
Types of Infrared Technology: Near, Mid, and Far Infrared
Not all infrared is created equal. The infrared spectrum includes three types of wavelengths:
Near Infrared (NIR): With the shortest wavelength, NIR penetrates just below the skin’s surface. It’s associated with skin health rejuvenation and wound healing.
Mid Infrared (MIR): These medium wavelengths reach deeper into soft tissues, potentially helping with inflammation and improving circulation.
Far Infrared (FIR): The longest wavelength penetrates up to 1.5 inches into the body, reaching fat cells and potentially aiding in detoxification and pain relief.
Many modern infrared saunas offer “full spectrum” technology, incorporating all three wavelengths for comprehensive benefits. If you’re considering which type might be right for you, understanding the differences between full spectrum vs far infrared sauna options can help you make an informed choice.
How Infrared Heat Penetrates the Body
Here’s where infrared gets really interesting. Unlike traditional saunas that heat the air first, infrared radiation passes through the air without heating it much and instead directly warms objects it touches—including your body!
This direct heating creates a deep, penetrating warmth that some describe as “heating you from the inside out.” The infrared waves cause water molecules in your body to vibrate, creating heat through friction at the cellular level. This process increases blood flow and promotes relaxation without the intense heat that can make breathing difficult in traditional saunas.
Because of this direct heating method, you’ll sweat profusely even though the air temperature feels relatively mild. It’s like being warmed by sunshine on a cool day—the air might be chilly, but the sun’s rays still warm your skin.
Infrared light is a form of electromagnetic radiation, but don’t let that term worry you. The electromagnetic fields (EMFs) produced by quality infrared saunas are typically quite low—lower than many household appliances you use daily. Top manufacturers like Finnleo ensure their infrared saunas produce minimal EMF exposure while maximizing therapeutic benefits.
Lower Temperatures, Different Experience
One of the biggest selling points of infrared saunas is their gentler environment. Operating at 120-140°F (50-60°C), they’re much more tolerable for heat-sensitive folks. This lower temperature has several practical advantages:
- Longer sessions are possible (typically 30-45 minutes versus 15-20 in traditional)
- Less facial discomfort and breathing strain
- More comfortable for newcomers to sauna therapy
- Potentially safer for daily use
- Less intense impact on heart rate and blood pressure
The experience feels quite different from a traditional sauna—less intense and enveloping, more gentle and penetrating. The infrared heat warms your body directly while the surrounding air remains relatively cool, creating what many describe as a more comfortable, relaxing experience.
Many users report they can read a book or even meditate more comfortably in an infrared sauna compared to a traditional one, where the intense heat makes concentration difficult. For relaxation purposes, this gentler heat can be a significant advantage.
Health Benefits Comparison: What Science Says
Cardiovascular Benefits: Heart Health and Blood Pressure
Both sauna types offer impressive cardiovascular benefits, but there is a bit more research overall for traditional saunas.
Traditional Saunas: Several large-scale studies from Finland have linked regular traditional sauna use with:
- Reduced risk of cardiovascular-related mortality (up to 65% lower risk)
- Decreased risk of high blood pressure
- Lower risk of stroke
- Reduced risk of fatal heart disease
One particularly impressive study followed over 2,300 Finnish men for more than 20 years and found that those who used saunas 4-7 times weekly had a 50% lower risk of cardiovascular-related death compared to those who used saunas once weekly. The absolute risk reduction was significant enough that researchers consider sauna bathing comparable to moderate-intensity exercise for heart health.
Infrared Saunas: While there’s less long-term research, smaller studies have shown promising results:
- Improved heart function in patients with chronic heart failure
- Reduced blood pressure and improved blood flow
- Improved exercise tolerance in patients with cardiovascular disease
- Positive effects on blood glucose levels and circulation
The gentler nature of infrared heat may make it more accessible for those with existing heart conditions, but always check with your doctor first!
If you’re weighing different wellness options, it’s worth exploring the sauna vs hot tub health benefits to understand how these therapies compare and which might be more suitable for your specific health goals.
Detoxification and Sweating: Myth vs. Reality
Let’s clear up some misconceptions about “detoxification” through sweating.
The truth is, your liver and kidneys do most of the heavy lifting when it comes to removing toxins from your body. However, research has shown that certain compounds, including heavy metals like lead and mercury, can indeed be excreted through sweat.
Both traditional and infrared saunas promote heavy sweating, though some claim the infrared’s deeper penetrating heat might enhance this detoxification effect. A 2012 study showed that sweat from sauna use contained numerous toxins including BPA, phthalates, and heavy metals, suggesting that regular sauna bathing might complement the body’s natural detoxification processes.
From a practical perspective:
- Both sauna types will make you sweat profusely
- Infrared saunas often allow longer sessions (30-45 minutes), potentially increasing total sweat volume
- Traditional saunas create more immediate, intense sweating within 15-20 minutes
- The dry heat of saunas may help release different toxins than other forms of sweating
Remember, proper hydration before, during, and after sauna sessions is crucial to replace fluid loss. Many sauna enthusiasts recommend drinking a full glass of water for every 15 minutes spent in the sauna to maintain proper hydration and support the body’s natural detoxification systems.
Pain Relief and Muscle Recovery Effectiveness
Here’s where both sauna types shine, though in slightly different ways:
Traditional Saunas:
- The intense heat helps relax tight muscles quickly
- Increased blood flow can accelerate healing of minor injuries
- Heat-shock proteins produced during sessions may help muscle recovery and adaptation
- The extreme temperature change stimulates endorphin release that can mask pain temporarily
Infrared Saunas:
- Deep-penetrating infrared light can reach deeper muscle tissues and joints
- Lower temperatures allow longer exposure (30-45 minutes), potentially enhancing healing effects
- Several studies show benefits for chronic pain conditions like fibromyalgia and arthritis
- The gentle heat may be more tolerable for those with pain conditions
Athletes increasingly use both types for recovery, with many professional sports teams now installing saunas in their training facilities. The combination of increased blood flow, heat-shock protein production, and muscle relaxation seems to accelerate recovery regardless of the sauna type.
For targeted muscle recovery, some evidence suggests infrared saunas might have an edge due to the penetrating nature of infrared light. However, the intense heat of traditional saunas creates a more dramatic whole-body response that many athletes prefer after intense training sessions.
Practical Considerations: Cost, Space, and Maintenance
Initial Purchase and Installation Costs
Let’s talk money—because saunas aren’t exactly impulse buys. Here’s how the costs break down for each:
Traditional Saunas:
- Entry-level models: $4,000-$7,500
- Mid-range: $10,000-$15,000
- Premium models: $15,000+
- Additional costs for proper ventilation and electrical requirements
- May require professional installation
Infrared Saunas:
- Entry-level models: $2,000-$2,500
- Mid-range: $5,000-$10,000
- Premium models: $10,000+
- Generally easier DIY installation
- Lower electrical requirements
Understanding how much does a home sauna cost is crucial before making your investment. The initial purchase price is just one factor to consider, as the true cost of ownership includes installation, maintenance, and operating expenses over time.
For top-quality saunas like those from Finnleo (available at Epic Hot Tubs), you’re investing in durability and craftsmanship that can last decades when properly maintained. Their traditional saunas feature authentic Finnish design, while their infrared models incorporate the latest technology for maximum benefit.
Energy Efficiency and Running Costs
Your electricity bill will definitely notice a new sauna, but the impact varies:
Traditional Saunas:
- Higher power consumption (6-8 kW heaters common)
- Longer warm-up times (30-40 minutes)
- Higher running costs (approximately $20+ per month for 3 weekly sessions)
- Lower power consumption (1.5-2.4 kW typical)
- Quick warm-up (10-15 minutes)
- Lower running costs (approximately $10 per month for 3 weekly sessions)
- Require proper ventilation
- Need moisture-resistant flooring
- Typically heavier construction
- Usually need dedicated electrical circuit
- Generally larger minimum size
- Less ventilation needed
- Less moisture concerns
- Lighter construction
- Standard household outlets sometimes sufficient
- Available in smaller, space-saving designs
- Intense heat experience (150-195°F)
- Typical sessions: 15-20 minutes
- May be challenging for newcomers or heat-sensitive people
- The authentic “sauna feel” many expect
- Gentler heat experience (120-140°F)
- Typical sessions: 30-45 minutes
- More comfortable for beginners and those sensitive to heat
- Different sensation that some describe as “warming from within”
- Pregnant women (always consult your doctor)
- People with unstable heart conditions
- Those with certain skin conditions that worsen with heat
- Anyone taking medications that affect heat tolerance
- People who’ve recently consumed alcohol
- Those with acute illnesses or fever
- More physically demanding on cardiovascular system with heart rate increases comparable to moderate exercise
- Potentially more dehydrating due to intense heat
- Usually recommended 2-3 times weekly for most people
- More intense heat stress on the body
- Higher blood pressure response during sessions
- Less cardiovascular strain due to lower temperatures
- Still causes significant fluid loss through sweat
- Often considered safe for more frequent use (4-7 times weekly)
- Gentler heat experience may be better for daily users
- More moderate blood pressure and heart rate effects
- Drink 1-2 glasses of water before sessions
- Keep sessions to recommended time limits
- Exit immediately if you feel dizzy, nauseous, or uncomfortable
- Rehydrate afterward with water and electrolytes
- Give your body time to cool down naturally
- Avoid saunas when ill or after heavy drinking
- For cardiovascular benefits: Both work well, though traditional saunas have more research backing them
- For detoxification: Both promote sweating; infrared allows longer sessions
- For muscle recovery: Infrared’s deeper penetration may target specific areas better
- For relaxation: Traditional offers the authentic experience; infrared provides gentler sessions
- For skin health: Both increase circulation to the skin; traditional creates more immediate effects
- You crave that authentic, intense heat experience
- You enjoy the social aspect of sauna bathing
- You appreciate the cultural tradition
- You want the option of steam and varying humidity
- You have adequate space and ventilation
- Budget permits higher running costs
- You prefer gentler heat sessions
- Heat sensitivity is an issue
- You want longer, more comfortable sessions
- Energy efficiency is important
- You have limited space
- You prefer solitary wellness activities
- You want faster warm-up times
- Start slow: 5-10 minute sessions initially, gradually increasing
- Listen to your body: Exit if you feel uncomfortable
- Schedule strategically: Try post-workout for recovery benefits
- Be consistent: Regular sessions provide more benefits than occasional use
- Track your response: Notice how different session lengths affect you
- Cold therapy: Alternate with cool showers or cold plunges for circulation benefits
- Gentle stretching: The heat makes muscles more pliable
- Mindfulness: Use sauna time for meditation or deep breathing
- Skin brushing: Before sessions to enhance circulation and exfoliation
- Hydration rituals: Special electrolyte drinks before and after
Infrared Saunas:
Many prospective buyers wonder how much does a sauna cost to run and how much electricity does a sauna use before making their decision. The energy efficiency of infrared saunas makes them significantly more economical over time, with electricity costs often less than half those of traditional models.
If budget considerations are important, infrared saunas offer significant savings on operating costs over time. Think of traditional saunas as gas-guzzling muscle cars versus infrared’s hybrid efficiency.
Space Requirements and Installation Challenges
Before you start shopping, consider where your sauna will live:
Traditional Saunas:
Infrared Saunas:
For home installation, infrared saunas typically offer more flexibility. They can often fit into existing spaces like spare bedrooms or basements without major renovations. Traditional saunas usually require more dedicated space and planning, especially for ventilation needs.
User Experience: Comfort and Accessibility
Heat Tolerance and Session Duration
Not everyone has the same heat tolerance, and this can be a major factor in your sauna choice:
Traditional Saunas:
Infrared Saunas:
If you’re new to saunas entirely, an infrared sauna provides a gentler introduction to heat therapy. You can always graduate to traditional saunas as your heat tolerance improves.
Accessibility for Different Age Groups and Health Conditions
Saunas can offer benefits across all age groups, but different types come with different considerations.
Traditional Saunas:
Traditional saunas operate at much higher temperatures, which means elderly users need to be more cautious, and they are generally not recommended for young children due to the intense heat. People with respiratory sensitivities or certain heart conditions may also find traditional saunas more challenging or even unsafe.
Infrared Saunas:
Infrared saunas, on the other hand, tend to be gentler and are often better tolerated by older adults. The lower temperatures make breathing easier and create a more comfortable environment overall. While infrared saunas may be suitable for a broader range of health conditions, it’s still important to consult with a doctor before use—especially for anyone with pre-existing medical issues or concerns.
The Social vs. Solo Sauna Experience
There’s also the social aspect to consider:
Traditional Saunas:
Traditional saunas are often larger and designed to accommodate groups, making them a common part of cultural traditions in places like Finland, Russia, and Korea. In many settings, they’re a communal experience—ideal for family bonding, casual conversation, or social relaxation, though talking can be a bit challenging in very high heat
Infrared Saunas:
In contrast, infrared saunas are typically smaller, often designed for one or two people. They focus more on individual wellness, offering a more private and personal atmosphere. Their lower temperatures also make them more comfortable for quiet activities like reading or meditation. Your choice ultimately comes down to how you envision using your sauna—whether you’re seeking shared moments or solo serenity.
Your preference here depends entirely on how you plan to use your sauna. Looking for family bonding time? A traditional sauna might be better. Want personal relaxation time? Infrared could be perfect.
Safety Considerations for Both Sauna Types
Who Should Avoid Sauna Use
While saunas offer many benefits, they’re not for everyone:
Both sauna types come with similar contraindications, though the lower temperatures of infrared saunas may be tolerable for some people who can’t handle traditional saunas.
Daily Use Safety: Which Option is Better for Regular Sessions?
For frequent users, safety becomes even more important:
Traditional Saunas:
Infrared Saunas:
Research suggests that infrared saunas may be safer for daily use due to their lower temperatures and reduced cardiovascular strain, though proper hydration remains crucial with either type. A 2018 study published in the Journal of Human Kinetics found that the physiological demands of traditional saunas were significantly higher than infrared sessions, suggesting that recovery time between traditional sauna sessions might need to be longer for optimal health benefits.
Hydration and Best Practices for Safe Sauna Sessions
No matter which sauna you choose, follow these safety guidelines:
Making Your Decision: Which Sauna is Right for You?
Your Health Goals and How They Align with Each Sauna Type
Consider what you’re hoping to achieve:
Budget and Space Considerations for Home Installation
Be realistic about practical factors when it comes to both budget and the room you have for your new sauna:
Limited Space
If you’re working with a smaller area, such as an apartment or a compact home, infrared saunas offer more space-saving options. Many models are designed to fit one or two people and can be placed in a corner of a bedroom, bathroom, or home gym without major renovations.
Tight Budget
For those watching their spending, infrared saunas are typically more affordable both upfront and in the long run. They tend to have lower purchase prices and cost significantly less to operate because they use less electricity and heat up faster than traditional saunas.
Outdoor Installation
If you’re planning to place your sauna outside, traditional saunas are often better suited for the job. Their sturdier, weatherproof designs can withstand the elements more effectively, especially when made with durable woods like cedar or hemlock.
DIY Installation
When it comes to ease of setup, infrared saunas are the clear winner for DIY enthusiasts. Many models come pre-assembled or in easy-to-assemble kits, requiring minimal tools and no specialized electrical work, making them more accessible for home installation.
Energy Efficiency
Infrared saunas are significantly more energy-efficient. They operate at lower temperatures and heat the body directly, rather than warming the entire room. This not only reduces energy consumption but also results in shorter warm-up times and lower utility bills.
Personalized Decision Factors: When to Choose Each Type
Here’s a simple breakdown to help your decision:
Choose a Traditional Sauna if:
Choose an Infrared Sauna if:
Getting Started: Tips for New Sauna Users
Building Your Sauna Routine
Starting a sauna practice? Here’s how to begin:
For infrared saunas, beginners can typically handle 20-30 minute sessions from the start. Traditional saunas might require building up tolerance more gradually.
Complementary Practices for Enhanced Benefits
Maximize your sauna experience with these complementary practices:
These practices can enhance benefits regardless of which sauna type you choose.
What to Expect During Your First Sessions
If you’re new to sauna use, your first few sessions might come with some surprises. You’ll likely sweat more than you expect, which is completely normal and a sign your body is adjusting to the heat. Some people may feel slightly lightheaded during or after their first session—if that happens, it’s important to exit the sauna and cool down.
On the positive side, many first-time users report deeper, more restful sleep that same night, along with noticeable muscle relaxation and a sense of mental calm. You might also wake up to skin that looks clearer and more refreshed, thanks to the increased circulation and sweating. It’s common to feel thirstier than usual afterward, so be sure to rehydrate well.
Most importantly, don’t judge the experience based on your first session alone—it often takes three to five sessions for your body to fully adapt and for you to start feeling the deeper, lasting benefits.
Conclusion: Finding Your Perfect Sauna Match
When it comes to infrared vs. traditional saunas, there’s no universal “better” option—just the right one for you. Traditional saunas offer that authentic, intense experience with centuries of tradition behind them. Infrared saunas provide a gentler, more accessible option with modern technology and efficiency.
At Epic Hot Tubs, we offer premium Finnleo saunas in both styles to match your preferences. Our team can help you explore options that fit your space, budget, and wellness goals. Whether you’re drawn to the classic Finnish experience or innovative infrared technology, the perfect sauna awaits.
Ready to make your home wellness sanctuary a reality? Contact us today to explore our Finnleo sauna collection and find your perfect match!
FAQs About Infrared and Traditional Saunas
Q: What is the difference between a traditional sauna and an infrared sauna? A: Traditional saunas heat the air around you (150-195°F) using wood, electric, or gas heaters, creating an intense, enveloping heat experience. Infrared saunas use electromagnetic radiation to directly heat your body while keeping air temperatures lower (120-140°F), resulting in a gentler but deeply penetrating warmth that many find more comfortable for longer sessions.
Q: Which sauna is better, infrared or traditional? A: Neither is universally “better” – they offer different experiences for different needs. Traditional saunas provide the authentic, intense heat experience with stronger research backing their cardiovascular benefits. Infrared saunas offer gentler sessions, lower operating costs, and may be more accessible for heat-sensitive individuals. Your personal preferences, health goals, and practical considerations should guide your choice.
Q: Are infrared saunas better than traditional saunas for health benefits? A: Research shows both provide similar health benefits, though traditional saunas have more extensive scientific backing. Traditional saunas create more immediate cardiovascular stress (similar to moderate exercise), while infrared sessions offer gentler but deeper heat penetration. For detoxification, pain relief, relaxation, and cardiovascular health, both types can be effective when used regularly.
Q: Which sauna is safer for daily use? A: Infrared saunas are generally considered safer for frequent use because their lower temperatures create less cardiovascular strain and dehydration risk. Many experts recommend limiting traditional sauna use to 2-3 times weekly for most people, while infrared sessions can potentially be enjoyed 4-7 times weekly. Always listen to your body and stay well-hydrated with either type.
Q: What are the downsides of infrared saunas? A: The main drawbacks include lower humidity levels (always dry heat), less intense sweat experience than traditional models, potential EMF exposure with lower-quality units, and lack of the authentic Finnish sauna experience many enthusiasts crave. Some users also miss the social aspect, as infrared models tend to be smaller, often accommodating just 1-2 people comfortably.
Q: Who should avoid saunas? A: Both sauna types should be avoided by pregnant women, people with unstable heart conditions or uncontrolled high blood pressure, those taking medications affecting heat tolerance, anyone who’s been drinking alcohol, and people with certain skin conditions aggravated by heat. If you have any health concerns, always consult your doctor before starting a sauna practice.
Ready to purchase a hot tub in NC?
Call us at 888-884-3742 or fill out the form below to get in touch with a member or our team.
Richard Horvath
Richard has been in the hot tub & spa industry for years. As a long hot tub & swim spa owner himself, Richard has a passion for helping homeowners create their dream backyard, helping over one thousand North Carolina homeowners achieve that dream in the process.